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Kerry Burkheimer , Redefining the art of the Custom Fly Rod
by Andy Dear


Every generation of Rodmakers produces a select group of individuals, "masters of the trade" if you will that continue to push the envelope of the design of the fishing rod. During the cane era, names Like Everett Garrison, Jim Payne, E.C Powell and Charles Ritz perfected tapers that even today are still held sacred with an almost religious reverence. With the introduction of fiberglass in the 1940's we saw a new generation of Rodmakers like Jimmy Green, Ferdinand Claudio, Harry Wilson, and Russ Peak carrying on the legacy of those before them. Then in the 1970's carbon fiber carbon fiber became the material of choice and along with it followed a new generation of Rodmakers that continue the tradition of redefining the boundaries of fishing rod design. One of the members of this elite fraternity of individuals is C.F. "Kerry" Burkheimer.

Born in Boise Idaho, Kerry grew up a hardcore fisherman almost from the moment he was born. Building his first rod as a teenager, Kerry quickly made a name for himself as a prominent custom rod builder with a keen aesthetic sense and an eye for detail. With most of his rods being built on blanks made by the likes of LCI, Scott, and J. Kennedy Fisher, Kerry amassed a sizeable clientele while establishing a reputation for making very high quality well built rods.

Having made numerous contacts in the industry through his rod building business and as a professional guide, Kerry was eventually offered employment at LCI. It was while working at LCI that Kerry met legendary Fly Rod designer Russ Peak. Kerry and Russ immediately became close friends, and eventually collaborated on the design of the famed Carinton series of Fly Rods by LCI in the early eighties. After leaving LCI Kerry continued to build rods, teach fly-fishing and guide throughout the remainder of the decade. Inevitably however, Kerry was unable to resist his first love, and finally opened up shop in Washougal Washington. Shying away from mass marketing and advertising, Kerry quietly builds a limited number of one and two handed fly rods cut from patterns of his own design. Relying solely on his intimate knowledge of fly fishing, and his passion for Rodmaking, Kerry has built a cult following of anglers and builders that continues to grow with every cast of a Burkheimer Flyrod.

Recently I had the privilege to interview Kerry about his history in the business, his thoughts on rod design and his friendship with the late Russ Peak, I hope you enjoy it.

Andy Dear: Kerry, first off I want to let you know how much I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to do this interview.

Kerry Burkheimer: Oh sure Andy.

AD: Tell me a little bit about your pre-rod building life and how it led up to where your at now.

KB: I guess it started with my fascination with flyfishing when I was about nine years old. My dad was a sales rep for an insurance company and he traveled Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. So we went to Montana and Idaho, and gosh I spent the first part of my life there. This was back in the sixties and I was exposed to just some fantastic country back then, as I am sure you could imagine. There was nobody around for the finest Trout fishing in the world! So we frequented that area two or three weeks out of the summer minimum. My first experience flyfishing was when I was about nine years old. That was on the Muscle Shell River just out of Helena Montana. The old man that sold us the flies, he was really a cool guy. He sold us some Grey Hackle Yellows, and Grey Hackle Peacock bodied type stuff, real small stuff like size 16's and 18's. I had never seen a fly that small in my life except the one's that I was swattin' off my arm! You know those no see'um's. So I was thinking to myself "This is going to work?...yeah right." So we went out there and I managed to keep a couple of casts out of the trees so the fly could hit the water. I ended up hooking about a 16 or 17 inch Rainbow, and he just ripped me up, and I was hooked!

AD: No pun intended right?

KB: Yeah right! (Laughter)

AD: So from that point on I just kept wanting to identify with fishing. So in High School when I got my drivers license, I found myself going out there alone quite a bit. That went on for quite a while, and I got into Steelhead fly fishing in the mid-seventies. I met a gentleman named Bill McMillan. I didn't know it at the time, but he was a very famous fly-fisherman for Steelhead. He pioneered Dry Fly fishing for Steelhead, and that is how I started, which is ironic because dry fly fishing for Steelhead usually is what people work toward. I ended up getting a rod blank because I couldn't afford a finished rod. It was a J. Kennedy Fisher glass rod. I built that rod up and dang you know it came out pretty good!

AD: Did you have any previous experience with rod building?

KB: Nope

AD: About what year was that?

KB: Oh gosh, about 1975 or '76, I was just out of high school. So the thing actually came out nice. You know six or eight coats of lacquer on the thread, I turned the handle on a drill...you know all that stuff. I was out fishing with it, and someone remarked about how nice it looked so I built him one, and so that kind of got me going. Back then in this area there was kind of a recession starting and employment was a little hard to come by. So what I ended up doing was meeting with the wholesaler and back then fly fishing wasn't as big, so I started building drift rods for people. I brought three blanks and all the components and I built all three. I hooked up with a tackle shop, and they sold the rods in a week. The owner was just floored because he didn't normally sell rods out of his shop that much. They sold for a little less than a factory rod, but the quality was very high. Pretty soon he ordered some more, so I built some more. Then the guys started calling me direct. People that saw the rods on the stream well they got my name somehow and they started calling me direct.

AD: Were you still in Idaho at the time?

KB: Actually no I was in Washington. So I hooked up with Kennedy Fisher on the fly rod side, and I started ordering like a hundred blanks a year from those guys. His delivery was poor in those days so I only received about fifty a year, but I still got the best price because I was ordering a hundred at a time though! (Laughter). Anyway, so I hooked up with Kennedy Fisher for the fly rods and I was using Loomis for the drift rods, and I got pretty busy there for a while. I had placed a small ad in a magazine, and I had guys calling me from the Bay area and I was custom building them stuff and that worked out really good. You know all of a sudden I had a clientele and it just started growing, as did my reputation. I had developed a reputation as a good Steelhead fly fisherman, fly caster and a rod builder.

So one day I am going to pick up drift rod blanks at LCI to build, and one of the guys at LCI comes up to me and says, "Why don't you ever buy any of our fly rod blanks? You are always buying drift rod blanks, what's wrong with our fly rods?" I looked at him and I said, "Because I don't think they are very good!" I just told him up front that they weren't any good. They didn't have the action, nor did they have the crispness. At the time I was into Scott PowR-Ply and J. Kennedy Fisher and those guys, which were cutting edge. Sage wasn't real well known back then. So LCI kept calling me and we talked back and forth, back and forth. Then in 1980 they called me up and wanted to know if I wanted to do some marketing for them, specifically to explore the fly rod business. They really wanted to expand into it, they already had the spinning and casting rods going, and the drift rods and all that going strong, but they were weak in the fly rods. You know people would order them, but they wouldn't reorder, and that is what you have to depend on. So I first started doing some marketing research in about 1980. I went to West Yellowstone to a FFF Conclave and gosh I was just happier than a clam. I mean come on, these guys are going to pay me to do this? I even got to go fishing! I mean if that was heaven I had made it! (Laughter). That was the best trip I had ever made Andy. So here I am all alone there at West Yellowstone, I had set up a booth doing marketing survey, talking to people, and while I am standing there I saw this old man walking around with this big tube. He was a funky lookin' old guy, kind of bald with big oversized tennis shoes on, I didn't really know who he was. I saw him walk up to Lefty Kreh, and it was like these guys knew each other from way back, they were like best friends. I had never met Lefty before, so I went up and I introduced myself and the other gentleman turned out to be Russ Peak. I spent the next three and a half hours casting flyrods with Russ peak and Lefty Kreh.

AD: Oh man....

KB: Let me tell you, I thought being able to fish and get paid for it was heaven, now I knew I was in heaven because I was with the Gods! (Laughter)

AD: I didn't realize that Russ and Lefty were such good friends.

KB: Super good friends. Russ actually told me one time that he was the only person that Lefty actually brought and paid for a rod from. I mean Lefty could get free rods from anybody...Lefty Kreh my god how many rods do you want? He actually purchased Russ Peak rods he thought so much of the workmanship and the quality of the product.

Anyway, so there we were casting rods, and I actually remember the name of the rod we cast. It was called a "Lefty Kreh Special" and they are really awesome rods, he called them a 4/10 rod. So Lefty is just at the top of his lungs, you know how he is (yells) "Russ this is the best dang rod I have ever cast in my life!" So I cast it and you know, it was one of the finest rods I had cast. I was a good caster back then, but I am kind of funky now (Laughter), but back then I was a good caster.

So I am casting this thing and we just really hit it off good, it just was a great meeting. I hooked up with Russ and told him what I was doing and that I was new in the business. I was trying to help this company out, and I just point blank asked him if he wouldn't mind doing some consulting work for us to try and get us headed in the right direction. He was reluctant at first but he finally accepted. He called me about three or four days after the conclave and invited me down to Pasadena California to his shop. I went down and we cut a deal. We were to make all of his shafts, and he had priority as far as shipping goes. In other words if he needed twelve blanks he got twelve blanks right away. We'd send him twenty blanks, it didn't matter just whatever he wanted. We were always gratuitous with the shafts, which helped him out a lot because he was backordered like five or six years. He just couldn't get the shafts quick enough to get them to his customers. So that is where it started, and I ended up actually designing with Russ peak. I didn't learn the designing process from Russ though, he actually refined the designs. I started designing on my own because LCI had hired me full time after that conclave because they liked the marketing results I was getting. So my job was to go through the whole Loomis Composite line of flyrods and redesign every single fly rod. So I'd go out and cast a rod and if something didn't feel right we'd bring it back in and put it through the sander and remove some material here and remove some material there, tape some guides back on the thing and go back out and cast it. You know these were all just shafts with guides and handles taped on. We'd go back out and cast it.... hhmmm that feels interesting lets change this or that. Before you knew it we had two or three rods just from sanding that felt pretty dang good...as a matter fact they were dialed. They were light, crisp, they cast in tight, or out far, it didn't matter. We then translated those models into patterns and designed a whole series of rods to feel the same. So I did the whole line of rods that way. In the meantime I was corresponding with Russ. I would send a couple of prototypes down for him to try and he would critique' them. Some of them he was real pleased with, some of them he though needed minor tweaking, usually in the tip. That is how I started designing rods.

So in about '81 the company decided they wanted to get into the flyfishing market deeper, and they wanted me to start a new line for them. I came up with the name Carinton, which is a fishing beat in Scotland. I talked with Russ about it and we decided to go ahead and work together to develop eight to ten models of Carinton rods that would be the pinnacle of his and my effort together. I designed all of the mandrels around ferrule points that he had come up with over a handful of rods that he felt were his best work. So we came up with the tapers, I selected the materials and basically Russ and I started working together designing those rods, and they came out marvelous, they were really wonderful rods. That was about 1982 when they introduced the IM6 material. I put IM6 in the tips and the lower modulus in the butt end of the rod. That was state of the art back then, you could not get more advanced than that at that point. Nobody was doing that stuff back then and only a few are today.

AD: When you and Russ were collaborating together, was he kind of mentoring you?

KB: You know, it ended up that way. We hit it off pretty good, we really did. I flew him all over the country to sport shows to help represent the Carinton design. All along he knew he was getting older, at that time he was 75 I think. He kept showing me stuff that he had never showed anybody before and that is where I kind of sensed that he was mentoring me.

AD: You know when I have been in a situation like that it always seems like the mentor may not always give the student the exact answer to a problem, but rather make you work for it a little bit.

KB: Oh Andy, you hit it right on the head. That is exactly how it was!

AD: They kind of lead you a little bit but not necessarily give you all the ....

KB: He wanted me to discover in my own way what it was that he already knew.

AD: Was he innovating those designs back in the sixties when he was working in glass?

KB: Yep, that man knew more about a flyrod than anybody else on this planet. While I was there in his shop, he would get calls from companies like Lamiglas, he was always talking to Jimmy Green, people were talking to that man all the time about flyrod designs, because he had figured it out. Of course he had spent a whole lifetime doing it. He always gave a huge portion of credit to God. He always said "what I have done here I could have done alone"

AD: What do you feel like the most valuable thing you learned from Russ was?

KB: (Pauses) I think one of the most valuable things was.... and this doesn't really relate to rods, and that was the type of person I wanted to be. He was the most generous kindest guy I have ever met. I mean a saint...he would qualify for sainthood, it was unbelievable. I think that was the thing that really impressed me the most. As far as rods go, I'd say I have a much greater appreciation now for the tapers that he was really stuck on at the time, and how to use those tapers.

Now that I think about it, one of the other things that impressed the most was how much people respected his ability, not just for who he was, but also his ability in design. You know nobody had achieved what this guy had achieved, at least not to the level that he had. That really impressed me as well...enough for me to say "Gees, I want to make this my business" Not that I am out there looking for a whole bunch of respect, I'll never get that ...at least not around here! (Laughter) Seriously, I was just really awestruck at his craftsmanship. It was just unbelievable. His graphite rods were as finely finished as any cane rod I had ever seen, and that really impressed me. In fact that right there probably impressed me more than anything. Not only his ability to change actions, but to manipulate actions through fiber and sanding walls, all that stuff. The final product was just unbelievable. It really took everything to a whole different level.

AD: When you were designing the mandrels for the flyrods, how did you go about developing those tapers? Was it just a trail and error process?

KB: Here is how it worked. I was the new kid coming into the company and I had never really designed before. So they said "Here are the mandrels, here is what we have....you fix it" That was where I started from. I had to work with some pretty poorly designed mandrels to be honest. They were about the poorest you could expect, but I made'em work. I was also keeping notes on a "wish list" about what I would change if I could. That is how I started designing the mandrels. I would hand the guy in charge of purchasing my wish list and he would axe about 60% of it. I would get my new mandrels and sure enough, they were dead on! So yeah, trial and error was what it was.

AD: How did guiding and teaching fly fishing influence your ideas about rod design and construction.

KB: It influenced it hugely. The reason that it was so influential was because I could see the beginners casting a rod, and I could see the experienced people casting a rod. You know we had guys that had fished for thirty years that would come to our Fly Fishing School. You kind of learn, well not so much in the schools but with guiding...well let me give you an example. These guys would come out with these brand new rods.... we won't mention any brand names. (Laughter) I'd have them in a situation where we'd be looking' at about a three or four pound fat Rainbow. He is about fifteen feet away tucked underneath a tree, we have a boulder in front of us that we are hiding behind so he doesn't see us, and I am telling the guy to make about a fifteen foot cast. He has a nine or ten foot leader on, so he has about five feet of fly line out of the tip. He can't even load the rod...I mean give me a break. I couldn't even make that cast with that rod! I am thinking to myself "This is ridiculous" How can these guys spend four or five hundred bucks, which back then was a huge amount of money and they can't even fish the rod, and now they are really mad! I'd hand them one of my rods and gees the guy was in love. He could still cast eighty feet if he absolutely had to. Of course he is never going to except to show off to his buddies in the parking lot, or to make his ego look good for the sales rep at the flyshop you know? More importantly though he is able cast "fishing distances." That was a huge eye opener for me. I always brought my own gear along and whenever I got in a situation like that I'd hand them a different stick, and you know it was good for rod sales too.

But you know even I made that mistake in my beginning years. I'd go out and with a new rod with just a leader on the line, no fly or anything. I'd cast the rod, dang the rod would be crisper than heck, and it would be turning over real good. Then I'd take the rod fishing and it is a whole different scenario. All of a sudden you have a lot of resistance because of the fly. So I started tying on big pieces of yarn, almost too big just to make sure that the line speed was doing what it was supposed to. So even I got caught in it back in the early eighties. I really remember making that change.

I'll tell you Andy, the rod has to fish. It has to look good and it has to be durable but it has got to fish. It has to cast a lot of different distances with proficiency and it has to be able to perform a multitude of casts. You want to be able to throw tight loops in close, you want to be able to roll cast, all those things. Today's designs out of some of these guys don't do that. They do one thing good...they cast long.

AD: And most of the time well beyond the casters ability anyway.

KB: Exactly, they can't appreciate it, you're right.

AD: How do you go about balancing castability, fishability and durability. Is it possible to combine all three attributes without sacrificing one for another?

KB: All those three can be combined and I think I have been fairly fortunate in that respect. It takes a lot of R & D and a lot of time, and a lot of testing to make sure that is how the products come out. I feel pretty successful at it at this point. The way my blanks are constructed, I don't do thin walled junk at all. I don't gratuitously put graphite in there either, but there is enough in there to do the job. I have a two weight that I fell on the other day and my whole body weight went down on it. I almost broke my arm, and I still have the rod! I was surprised that it didn't break...it should have but it didn't!

AD: Tell me a little bit how a blank evolves from a theoretical model to a working rod. How does it start? Is it usually a situation where you're out fishing and a design arises out of a certain need?

KB: Yeah, well I wish I were out fishing! I'll tell you how it works here is a scenario. This client, a friend of mine orders a 10' 8wt. He says to me kind of like a challenge "Scott makes the best 10' 8wt in the world." I looked at him and I said "Well they don't anymore!" He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Because I am going to make you a better one". So I cut the deal, and he needed the rod in about eight months. So four months go by, five months go by, six months go by and I still don't have anything. So one day I am out mowing the lawn, and I am serious, the design just popped in my head. I'll use this design pattern, this mandrel, and this material. It had to be four piece...no problem. I turn off the mower and go write the ideas down, and then I went back to mowing. That evening I cut it out and made it the next day. I had to make one small change in the butt section, and the rod was dialed....DIALED! I sent it to him and two weeks later he called me and said " You did it, this is the best 10' 8wt. I have ever cast" But I had to mow the lawn to get there! (Laughter)

AD: So sometimes it's just a matter of getting away from it, and then it comes to you.

KB: Right, a huge amount of it is intuitive. You have to be in a relaxed environment, and you slip into that mindset. Sometimes it just happens. I don't want to use the words on demand, but there is just a mood that I can get into and stuff starts coming down. I have a Spey Rod, a 13'9" 8wt and that model was designed strictly intuitively. It is now being called the finest Spey Rod ever made by a whole bunch of people. I would never be so bold as to say that though. That rod was all intuitive as well. It was that same kind of thinking...or not thinking if you want to call it that.

AD: I guess when you design a rod, basically you have three major variables you are working with: type of material, mandrel design and cloth pattern. Then there are the smaller variables like wall thickness, scrim, resin systems etc...you probably have some preset designs that you know will work pretty good. How much time do you spend experimenting with subtle attributes like minor changes in wall thickness. Are you still playing with those things at this point?

KB: Yeah, I still experiment with those things quite a bit. I just designed a little 383 three piece. I probably designed it about two maybe three weeks ago. It's been in the making for about five or six months and I finally decided I had to finish it. I tried one set of tip section, mid section and butt section, then I tried another set, and I swapped them all around trying to get the right feel. I had one that was pretty dang good, but something kept bugging me about it, and it bugged me for a week. It turned out to be the mid section, I wasn't getting enough load out of the lower mid section. Now that is the tricky part, because if you soften up the midsection too much you're going to overpower it with the butt and you'll get sine waves in the line, so you have to keep it balanced. I was also dropping down to fairly thin plys of material. Even though it was only a three weight I was getting pretty skinny there and I have to watch that. So I am playing with it, and playing with it, and just like I said about mowing the lawn, this time I was probably sweeping the floor or something (Laughter). The idea popped in my head, I'll do this taper with this material and this pattern cut. I ran it that afternoon and it's awesome...just awesome. The other one was good, it would cast eighty feet or it would cast five feet, but it didn't have that feel, it didn't have the magic to it. You gotta have the magic in it to make it feel right.

AD: So even with a full spectrum of rods like you have in your catalog you're still playing around with new designs all the time?

KB: Yep, I am always playing around with new designs, refining the old ones sometimes. Maybe I'll make a material change, so now I have to change patterns to complement the new material. New material is always coming out. They are always making better resin systems, better scrim products, and it changes everything.

I also think I have become very aware of how to put subtle power in the lower end of the rod now. I have been doing it for about 8 or ten years, but lately I have really become cognoscente of that. Subtle power meaning responsive butt sections, but not stiff. That takes some time to learn.

AD: Yeah, that seems to be a common problem with heavier weight flyrods that have stiff butt sections. You can't get the butt section loaded because it is too stiff for the mid section to access it.

KB: Oh yeah, and a super light tip so you can't actuate the rest of the rod. It is a common mistake. A

D: Have you ever built from Fiberglass?

KB: No I haven't, but that is on the drawing board. When I brought Russ's business in 1993 I got all the patterns and everything and I have about 400 blanks here all glass. I want to actually start making Russ peak glass rods. That is definitely on the drawing board.

AD: Glass really seems to be making somewhat of a comeback.

KB: Oh yeah, it's a wonderful material, and Russ's glass rods were just phenomenal. When I first got those blanks I came back to the shop from Pasadena. We taped on a bunch of guides and handles, oh my lord, some of those rods Andy are so fine. They are finer than any cane or graphite or glass rod I have ever cast...they are that good. Which is interesting because you think "Well graphite has got to be better than this material or that material" There are certain attributes to each material, and there are also certain attributes to what make a fine flyrod. You know certain characteristics like responsiveness, line speed, what kind of effort does it take to get the loop out, how does it protect light tippets? All those things go into the designing of a flyrod. These rods meet all those criteria, they are incredible, just absolutely incredible, I am pretty stoked, I actually have the material here I just haven't had a chance to mess with it much.

AD: How about guide sizes and configurations, do you experiment with that sort of thing at all?

KB: You know not as much as I used to. I have kind of settled on what works for me. I like to use slightly oversized guides made of light wire. I think that it is important to have enough area for the fly line to have room to move. You know some guys put the strippers close together and all that Jazz, I don't do any of that, although I am doing one right now for a client who requested it that way. I just try to build a good solid product using the best components I can buy.

AD: Have you ever designed any spinning and casting rods at all?

KB: Yeah I have, I did a fair amount of spin and cast when I worked at Loomis.

AD: You know one of the services that you offer your clients is that of a "true" custom built rod, insofar as the taper is one of a kind. Sort of like the guy who ordered the 10' 8wt. 99% of the custom builders out there don't have the advantage of designing and manufacturing their own blank, which really is about seventy, or eighty percent of what constitutes a rod anyway. When someone comes to you and says "This is what I need the rod to do" and gives you a list of wants, how do you go about designing something that specific without being with the customer on his home water and being able to watch him/her cast and fish.

KB: Well you know what usually comes up is "what rods do you like now?" What do you like or dislike about them. Why are you calling me if you like'em? (Laughter). What is the intended use, how much experience do they have casting? It's a weird deal Andy, it's like you kind of get a sense of the person from talking to them. I have some pretty pinpoint questions that I like to ask. This is going to sound weird, but you can kind of tell by the personality type of where he is at and how he wants it to be. If he is a type A you aren't going to send him a super slow rod, but you're going to send him something crisp but still responsive because he should slow down a little bit, at least I am going to try and convince him that he should. You know a big part of it is just talking to the person. You see when I was guiding on the river for a number of years, I wasn't working at the plant anymore, but I still had access to it. I was still doing some consulting work for them. So I'd get a call for a special design of some sort and I had the ability to go up and carve it out and actually produce it, and I got really good at that. I got really good at people saying "I'd like a little quicker tip on the rod, what do you think you can do for me?" So I'd go carve it out and maybe send them two butts, two mids and two tips so they could interswap them. Usually they would pick the combo that I thought they should pick.

AD: Every time you and I talk, it seems like you are inundated with work, how big do you look for your operation to become? Are you satisfied with the volume you are doing now?

KB: I am satisfied with the demand, but I am not satisfied with what I can do to put out more. I'll probably do 300 rods this year, maybe a few more. We are working on some equipment right now to raise it up to 500. I think 1200 rods a year internationally would be optimum. I'd really like to make more blanks for more people. I'd like to do some private label stuff for guys, or even sell more blanks to custom builders like you. I certainly wouldn't mind selling 2000 blanks a year. That would be a good number. That way I could stay small and guarantee very high quality and that is really what I want to do.

AD: You know I have found that most of us rod makers tend to be such perfectionists that we border on unhealthy....

KB: Like obsessive-compulsive behavior! (Laughter).

AD: However I think that holding yourself to a higher standard of quality is the only way to get better.

KB: I think so, you know I have tried to dilute it a couple of times when I first started, and it just doesn't work, I just wasn't happy. You know I have had guys call me and ask me to make them a cheap introductory flyrod. I have to tell them that I only know how to make one kind of fly rod. I mean what am I going to do, train my employees to mess up a finish job? (Laughter) It just takes too much time and I just can't cut corners!

AD: Okay the last question. Do you ever get to fish at all anymore?

KB: You know Andy I used to spend 150-175 days a year on the river. I have fished all my life since I was 18 months old! So I have decided to sacrifice several years to stay in the shop primarily so I could get the products to where they need to be. Then I could take some time off.

I miss it, I am not going to say I don't, but I still manage to get some in. I hit the cream of the cream. Come Fall, I am usually out dry fly fishing for Steelies and I always manage to have a heck of a good time doing that.

AD: Well listen, I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to do this interview, thank you very much.

KB: You bet Andy, thank you.

 

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